Gurley and Reynolds need to realize that without the condition preventing stores from moving from the Mall to Avalon we could easily have Alpharetta's version of Gwinnett Mall.

It sounds to me as if Avalon will be pursuing companies that are higher end than what is currently found in the mall area, and I'm sure that several companies could actually support multiple stores in the area, such as Apple.

We are most appreciative of the Planning Commissions's extraordinary efforts in deliberating over our proposal for Avalon and we are happy to finally have a positive recommendation. However, the conditions they chose to attach to their approval, have effectively killed it.

We understand how some may view Avalon as "just another shopping center with apartments", due to their limited exposure to the state of the art in mixed-use development, but there are numerous examples of how similarly situated properties have proven to be iconic and transformational in the communities they serve.

We remain hopeful, and will continue to work with the Alpharetta community to help realize the vision of becoming the "Silicon Valley of the South". It will, however, require that we get out of our box and out of our comfort zone, just as they did in San Jose, Austin and Seattle many years ago.

Mark C. Toro
Managing Partner
North American Properties

Live, Work, Play mixed-use developments are smart growth strategies that reduce traffic and improve quality of life. It's proven that mixed-use developments need full time residents to be successful by supporting the retail and office component. Alpharetta should support the master plan as shown.

Initially I was against the high amount of rental condo units in "West Village" in Smyrna (a mile from where I used to live--we fought to restrict the number) but it doesn't seem to have hurt the area. It allowed the project to be built; it allowed foot traffic to several thriving businesses and it made for a neat project. Now they are breaking ground on a new phase of units-these aren't your average rental units and I don't think that's the plan for Avalon either. It's nice to think of Alpharetta as ONLY having high-end real estate BUT there are other needs for people in the community--while no one wants slumlords or ugly apartments (like outside my office here off Buford Highway/Dekalb County) you DO need apartments, even in upscale areas like Alpharetta. Hopefully they don't kill this project!

"I think this is an ideal place for apartments. And the reason I want to put that in there about the transference is because there is great concern about adding to the inventor of for rent zoning in the city of Alpharetta," Bristol said. "We have an 85/15 ratio, which we are completely over right now."

Yes, let's make Avalon pay for previous poor planning or improper allowances to other rental properties. [extreme sarcasm]

Or...let's all accept the fact that times have changed and Alpharetta needs to change with it. From all I have seen of the plans online any my own personal experience dining and shopping at Santana Row, I certainly wouldn't look at these as traditional apartments. And visitors certainly won't arrive and get the feeling that they just landed in the middle of an apartment complex.

In my opinion, Alpharetta should put aside the traditional binary view of rent/own, accept that the city is losing a great deal of money for every day that the opening is being delayed, and find a way to rationalize and get beyond the fact that, for all its good intentions, the 85/15 rule lacked both vision and execution a long time ago.

The Avalon plan is fantastic and what we need to see Alpharetta grow and thrive at the next level. The residents there will help to make it a vibrant and safe community with world-class appeal. I would sure hate to see us lose it (again) all because some are clinging to the ideals of yesteryear. What then?

I'd much rather have high end apartments there than the ugly dirt pit that is there now.

Kevin, you are absolutely correct on all points! Further, let us not forget NAP acting in good faith by transfering the rights of Westside Parkway without condition whereas the previous developer held this in his back pocket as negotiating tool. Let's do in kind for NAP and help them move this project forward!!

So why, really, are these apartments so important?

If the claim is that the apartments are the key portion that makes this a viable project, it follows that the retail, office, townhomes and other components are unable to stand alone as a development. Doesn't that raise red flags?

In a project this size, a few hundred extra people from those apartments occasionally using some of the retail portion wouldn’t drive it’s survival. So it seems a far more likely scenario that the cash flow from the apartment rents, or initial investor purchase of that cash flow, is instead the critical piece to making it profitable. Nothing wrong with profitability. But I would still see that as a concern here, because it's saying the remainder of the project otherwise doesn't make enough economic sense. Or it does, but the apartments just make it more profitable.

Mark
Your other developments transformed the local area....no reason to expect anything less here.
Allen DeNyse

Why not all town homes with more landscaping and green space? Why not large executive condos above the retail? Some could be sold to corporations for visiting CEO's and executives. Parking structures are obvious and common. They take up green space. The Planning Commission understands the value of Alpharetta and the quality of our life style. The community has designed these guidelines. They don't seem to be swayed by your sense of urgency hard sell. I'm actually surprised you would say they've had "limited exposure" to multiuse properties. This development could be so much more if you would modify the design to fit our corporate and
lifestyle needs.

Mark,

I like the plan submitted and when looking at the references (Santana Row and Americana at Brand) I believe something designed similar to those would be a fantastic addition to Alpharetta. One concern I have is the town homes and single family homes. Are those to be high end like the apartments and will your company be building these or a local established home builder? With the hit housing has taken I am not sold that the homes and town homes will sell so close to 2 major roads and a shopping center like this. I hope you prove me wrong but I would hate to see a few built homes and empty lots for years to come because there isn't the market demand for them.

I was also curious if there was any consideration for a mini park type setup with a small stage for live music in the design? I just returned from vacation at Sandestin resort and they have a mixed use area called Sandestin Village of Baytowne Wharf. I think something like that in Avalon would be a great addition to attract people who live and work in the area beyond the retail shops and restaurants.

Thanks for taking the time to hear the feedback and respond to the community.

Jason

I lived near The Domain in Austin and saw the high degree of energy it brought to that area. I think this would be tremendous for Alpharetta. The residential indeed does bring more of a "living community" feel than complexes without that component--it should be rather self-evident.

With planned entertainment and community events, along with sharp multi-use, this could escalate Alpharetta's forward-looking image--especially because it's in such close proximity to the soon-to-be-revitalized downtown. The pop-up market video from Atlantic Station (which is of the Atlanta Underground Market, now called the Atlanta Nosh) shows an event that draws from outside the neighborhood. My Alpharetta company (Crepe Cottage LLC) will gladly participate if this type event is held at Avalon.

I agree with swapping apartment build rights from other spots in the city, as a way of avoiding adverse impact upon the ratio. Not only does't this make it "worse," but by providing a type of rental unit not currently in Alpharetta, it potentially makes the ratio "better."

What I'm afraid of is that now that a developer wants to complete the project, we're going to spend too much time and energy on NIMBY arguments and bickering rather than building, and we're going to miss another opportunity.

Hoping to see more progress soon!

Mr. Toro -
Congratulations on generating so much 'astroturf' support of your project. You seem to have generated a lot of "new" commenters. It would be interesting to know how many actually live here.

Your complete disdain for this community is astounding. Your comments that relegate us as something out of the Deliverance movie is arrogant beyond belief.

Doesn't Patch have offices at the Chamber of Commerce? The entity that received $25K-$50K from our taxpayer money in order to promote this project? Funny that Councilman Chris Owens who sits on the GNFCC board made the motion to funnel the money. And other councilmen and mayor Belle Isle sit on the GNFCC board too. Looks like all one big happy family.

This is the 21st century that you want to create right from the land of Santana Row.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303302504577323353434618474.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEFTTopOpinion#articleTabs%3Darticle

As Nancy Bristol noted in the meeting, the people's voices can be heard now or at the ballot box. Your choice.

I've been a commenter on Patch well over a year with this handle. It was not created specifically to comment on Avalon posts, unlike most of the commenters. Deal with the facts.

Living in Cumming in a mixed use community myself, Vickery Village, I love this idea of Avalon. I work right off of Old Milton Parkway so this project is of extreme interest to me. Will there be any "open houses" where the community could get a look at all of the plans and designs? My wife and I agree moving to our mixed use community was the best idea. We love the energy of the place on Saturday nights where we can walk down from our condo above the retail and walk to Cincos to listen to live music and then grab some frozen yogurt in the open space courtyard. I can only imagine how invigorating Avalon would be due to its size and range of shops/activities.

I definitely would want to see the rental units. I'm sure they will be upscale. As an owner of several rental units, I know personally there are a ton of people that have been hit hard by the economy and can't get a mortgage right now. But they still want high quality, high end places to live while they get back on track. These people have good jobs but have some bad credit history due to foreclosures. Avalon sounds like a great way to get introduced to Alpharetta.

Not knowing anything about Transfer of Development Rights (TDR) programs, I took the time to read up on it at http://government.cce.cornell.edu/doc/html/transfer%20of%20development%20rights%20programs.htm. Pretty interesting reading.

My highlights:
- "few communities have had success in using these programs because of the associated challenges"
- "Communities may not support TDR programs, and local governments may have to invest in community education programs to explain them to the public."
- "it may also be a liability, since a community’s land use needs change over time"

So I have some questions for our community leaders:
(1) Do we already have a viable TDR program in place and, if so, it is available in layman's terms for all to access and read up on well before the 23rd?
(2) Are we being 100% transparent and sufficiently protected from liability?
(3) Are we looking to invest/partner in the proposed TDR? e.g. Let's say the city wants to charge $5M to NAP for TDR rights; will the city then put in 50% of that, with the expectation that the money will actually be used to pay off those who already hold the rights?
(4) What's to keep us from taking rights today but then grant them right back at a later date? If that should happen, should we not expect NAP to sue for, say, 10X what they paid to play...and win? (see #2)
(5) What properties are we considering transferring rights from? Can we get a list, with expected compensation?

Thanks! :-)

This project is what we need in Alpharetta to remain the place to move your business or family,period. Nancy Bristol has chosen to try and kill it it for a few reasons. The major one being that if we have a great place like this her "sacred" Windward will no longer be the rulling power base, the "name" of Alpharetta. Yes back twenty years ago you could say I live in Windward , look at me. Big deal its a bunch of houses, yes they are nice but. The power base of this city is now spread out, much younger and we need to think about the future and stop living in the past. I agree apartments are not always the best for a commuity. I myself will be moving my son from what was once a great Fulton County grade school becuase it has failed YP two years running. Why becuase it has a lot of apartment kids, single parents etc. So if any one has a stake in more or less apartments it is me. This project is not going to attract low wage apartment dwellers. They will not being able to afford it. I see no mention from Nancy of the 350 apartment complex that is weeks away from opening on Mansell Road , right behind the Atlantic Fish Market (Mansell/North Point). Why not? Yes Amli at North Point opening next month, go look.
I will be at the council meeting to show support this project, it will only increase my home value in Alpharetta, even though my house it miles away. This will a be major, if not the major, attraction for years.
MOE Parent

The Planning Commission in this city exists for a reason and has done a superb job over time of assuring a quality of life in this city. As a twenty year resident of Alpharetta I too would like to see an upscale hub at the former Prospect Park site. But not at any cost. I take exception to Mr. Toro's remarks in his first post:
"We do, however, take issue with Commissioner Bristol's blanket statement "I think the citizens of Alpharetta have spoken very clearly that they don't want apartments". Many citizens have spoken very clearly in favor of "apartments" in the two online forums ".
The problem with these forums is that there is no way of knowing whether the people posting are anonymous and shilling for the developer. It was not a "blanket statement" to say that the citizens of Alpharetta, particularly those of us who have a long term, continuing investment here, want the Comprehensive Land Use Plan adhered to and a small ratio of for rent to for sale properties. Furthermore the commissioners have a point about the cannibalization of retailers/restaurateurs from the North Pointe Mall site. North American Properties may make their marketing presentations to Chamber of Commerce leaders, or anyone else they choose, but long term residents of this city are not convinced that it is necessary to cave in to every point Mr. Toro wants. As far as city council, I want to be assured that anyone voting on this matter has not accepted campaign contributions from NAP.

@Kevin - Regarding transfer of development rights... I believe Alpharetta has added this condition to apartment zonings in the past. And for what it's worth, the city of Milton is considering TDRs in their new plans for Crabapple.

Regarding political contributions... Several employees of North American Properties made contributions to Jim Paine's campaign for mayor. I don't know of any other contributions.

Look at the front page of today's AJC...also RE Mark Toro's comments above about "Vickery Villiage on Steriods". Has anyone been to Vickery Villiage lately...it's empty.

Okay, so...is this what we are all in agreement on:
- Anyone who took any campaign contributions should be out?
- Anyone who has any connection whatsoever to any person or company who stands to gain from the TDR should be out?
- The planning commission should now show all their cards, including the not-to-exceed TDR charges and timeline so NAP can quickly decide if it is going to be within their margin requirements to continue?

I know I would sure like to see just how much that is going to be and how long it would take to get finalized. Heck, if it's $50 and can be wrapped up by the 23rd I'll write the damn check myself. ;-)

As I said before. If we raise the build costs too high and the property is forced back onto the open market, what then?

I want to see an upscale development at this site, but not at any cost. The Commission is correct about apartment density and the CLUP is not stalled or rear vision. I work in Sandy Springs, near clusters of apartment units that are causing so much of the crime and resource drain for the city.

Check the link below:
http://sandysprings.patch.com/articles/sandy-springs-seek-ways-to-reduce-apartment-crime-occupancy-violations

The concerns about apartment to for sale ratios in the city are VALID. Also I want to know if as the AJC reports today that the arm of the Chamber - Progress Partners - has been using tax dollar to lobby city council on behalf the NAP and this project.

If this development is going to drain North Pointe Mall of retailers or end up looking like Vickery Village does, then I rather look at a dirt pile for another couple of years. We don't need development at any cost.

All that said, I'd still like to see Avalon at this site-just not at massive compromises that could damage the long term quality of the life of the city.

Couldn’t help but notice an interesting coincidence. At last week’s Planning Commission meeting, a gentleman promised he’d be bringing 200 people who supported Avalon and all its rental unit glory to the next City Council meeting…. When I reviewed the results of the above poll, 203 people responded favorably to allowing NAP to build Avalon with all its rental units. Add to that Brandon Beach’s email urging Chamber members to post favorable views on the City website to outweigh the legitimate concerns of the actual citizens of Alpharetta…and yep, I too smell a rat. Like another poster indicated, the support is simply too rehearsed to be legitimate. What many residents, like myself, understand is that Avalon will set a precedent. Developers will be pressing to add rental units to their plans. Several developers have already stated they are watching what is happening with Avalon and they are ready to put forth new applications to include residential rental property. It’s short-sighted and naive to think that Avalon will occur in a vacuum.

Vickery Villiage on steroids....Avalon needs some estrogen to balance out all those Testosterone driven straight lines. Needs a less density. More curved streets with landscaping.
When you think about the perfect dwelling of men in their 20's & 30's, what comes to mind? Could it be any apartment with a big screen tv....huge, the latest stereo system the louder the better, computer with lots of cables and a big coffee table in front of the most comfortable sofa possible from Rooms to Go. Then of course a BMW with extra varoom and maybe a big dog.
Well then, move these computer guys from all over the country in next door to the cool couple and the retired couple wanting an urban mixed-use experience. Usually these dwellings are sandwiched together have very little insulation. So you end up hearing all kinds of things you wish you didn't know about your neighbors. Then since your dwellings are in neat little rows with just small streets to separate you from other rows you are treated to the sounds of BMW's buzzing down your narrow passage ways at all hours. Poop, where does the dog poop go? It's a long walk to that little green patch, so watch out where you step and drive. Accidents happen and how many self absorbed 20 yrs are going to stop and pick it up?

The poll results above are specious at best. LoveAlpharetta has a point. Interesting to note the Patch comments have become Mr. Toro's blog, responding primarily to those in agreement.

Mr. Toro,

What you have failed to mention in your numerous posts is that Community Development recommended the approval of Avalon WITHOUT for-rent apartment units. The planning commission did not take Community Development's recommendation but attempted to negotiate with NAP on rental units. If City Council wants to change CLUP it needs to be done outside an application process not within the debate of a proposed development such as Avalon. If Council and the PC are going to maintain their promise to the community then apartments should just be denied. After all these same Council members advised MetLife applicants that the for rent units proposed for their MU development would never pass council. And after the front page of today's AJC there will be a lot of attention paid to how the council members vote. Transferring development rights is not too much to ask when the original Community Development recommendation was no apartments at all. Respectfully sir, you have income at stake here, I have a home, an investment and a community I love. I want the city to maintain a low ratio of for rent units.

Also, no one is saying that the apartments proposed for Avalon are equivalent to what is happening in Sandy Springs. But what is relevant is what will happen if these apartments are appoved without transferring development rights. There will be an onslaught of demands from other developers who have been denied. That's another reason to stick with the Comprehensive Land Use Plan of 85-15. The for rent stock in Alpharetta should remain low. If City Council wants to change it, then do it outside of a pending development application. Not just to accomodate Avalon.

For those of us who have a long term stake in Alpharetta, the concern should be not to create an opening that will cause an expansion of for rent units and create a future problem like Sandy Springs is experiencing now.

Mr. Toro,
Kindly respond to my post regarding the fact that Community Development recommended ZERO FOR RENT units at Avalon.

Does this about sum it all up:

CULP Math: 1(retail) + 1(rental units) = < 2
Whereas:
- People who commit to a mortgage are more valuable in the community (thus implying a negative valuation for anyone who wishes to rent), so any developer who wishes to build anything approximating an apartment must make up the difference, no matter how financially painful that may be?

Entrepreneur Math: 1(elite retail) + 1(luxury living) = > 2
Whereas:
- High end living attracts a highly desirable demographic, which in turn attracts high end brands that have thus far passed on other local malls and shopping centers, the end result being something > the individual parts.
- The Alpharetta ethos has already been addressed and even uplifted by design, requiring no buyouts as if they have somehow created negative equity in the community.

I just want the commission to get the math right. If they believe that Avalon is designed in such a way that it will create negative equity in the community, then by all means justify that statement, put a price tag on it, and see where it goes. Or...go back and throw out that--now clearly biased against those who don't favor a mortgage--85/15 rule and replace it with a statement and charter much more appropriate for a community that wants to remain a leader, such as "to consistently maintain a standard of excellence within the community, ensuring the appropriate level of design, style and community are paramount in each new venture".

If the CULP needs changing do it outside of a pending application.

Avalon should be subject to the same stringent requirements as Windward Mill, MetLife and the rest. Trying to extrapolate a pejorative by arguing that in not wanting a greater density of apartments means "less desirable residents" is a canard and sidesteps the legitimate concerns about expanding the density of for rent units.

And once and for all one no one supporting the apartments at Avalon will address is the fact that Community Development recommended NO APARTMENTS at the site. NONE, ZERO, ZIP, NADA. This is an attempt by a developer to use the Chamber of Commerce and it's members to tar the Planning Commission and pressure City Council into getting its way. If you want the Community Land Use Plan changed, then change it, but not in mid stream of a development application to suit one developer. Period.

Yes, and the information, including today's AJC story will be out in the open. Not a skewed "anonymous" poll. As for the mayor, we'll see won't we? I think the Chamber and it's lobbying efforts is a far bigger deal than who paid for Amphitheater tickets and who didn't. And I do remember quite a bit of grandstanding on that subject.

I have been reading this ever-growing blog for several days now. I am a ordinary citizen and not a member of the City Council, not a member of the Planning Commission and not aligned in any way with either or with NAP nor have I ever met Mr. Toro. I would like to say that I voted “yes” that the rental units over the retail are nothing like apartment complexes, so as an “ordinary” citizen, my vote is not specious. I also commented on the City blog in support of Avalon. I will be disappointed if Avalon does not move forward. I live in the DT area and have been hungering for its renewal. Yes, NAP is in the business of making money through their commercial real estate developments, as we all are in our chosen professions, but can we not as citizens of Alpharetta benefit as well through their investment?

I have quietly followed the blogs and pictures of what Avalon could be for months. From the beginning, I had the impression that NAP wanted community input and was very excited about Avalon, not only for themselves, but also for what they could bring to the community. I don’t claim to know all there is about real estate development and maybe there needs to be further compromise on both sides of the question. However, can we not work in a spirit of cooperation with less “suspicion” for a new development in Alpharetta that could bring positive change to the community? NAP is not looking to build a dumping group but a beautiful space!

Guess we will all find out if the input is real or phony at the ballot box if this gets voted in.

I find it hard to believe that Council would ignore the true will of the people unless there were other incentives we aren't aware of.

For anyone interested here is a link to the AJC article. City-backed group lobbies city for developer http://www.ajc.com/news/city-backed-group-lobbies-1411519.html

What happened to "Mike's" comment that said there is a MU moratorium until at least August at which time a new plan will be in place excluding any rentals???????

Somebody previously wrote,

"Alpharetta doesn't have enough land left to ever get below 15% [N.B. of rental units], which would seem to mean that there is almost nothing in reserve to transfer rights from and would force any developer into a very weak business case from day 1."

1. Why would we want to approve ANY rentals at this point then, regardless of developer?

1a. Is the 15% number a 'bad' number that should be changed? Are there planning guidelines for communities of our type? If so, how would changing it help or hurt us to raise or lower it? (apparently lowering it is not an option...)

2. I would be surprised if this would result in a 'very weak business case' for developers. As a relatively new resident here, I find Alpharetta to be a very attractive place to live. I would suggest that the business case here is stronger than in most other areas. This is a desirable location.

Again, I'm new and asking, not using rhetoric to make a point one way or another.

Just my $0.02

To add to all this, apparently Community Development has received a request to build 350 apartments units in the area of Webb Bridge Road and Kimball Bridge Road. Just how many apartments do we need? And this isn't "apartment dwellers are bad". I have lived in apartments, it is just how many in a city of this size is enough?

Like they said in the movie Jaws, "you're going to need a bigger boat"..,you're going to need a bigger meeting hall.

Linda,

I don't know 'how many are enough.' Here is a data point.

I did shop for apartments in Sep-Oct. Talking with apartment managers, the apartments seem to be on the order of 85% full. This seems to be a level at which the apartments are satisfied and not working too hard to get more clients.

Here is another data point. Single family homes seem to be holding their value quite well here compared with other areas.

Conclusion - there is demand for both types of housing here. No surprise, just look around.

Given the demand for our community, be can and should be selective as to what is best for our citizens.

Just my $0.02

Important $0.02 William.

I don't at ALL believe that Avalon is anything like a typical apartment complex, and that it is precisely what Alpharetta needs, in order to attract well-educated, affluent 30s and up adults who want something different than 'typical suburban house.'

Let me add, I am an Alpharetta resident and homeowner for 5+ years, and I have no affiliation to the city council, chamber, Patch, NAP, etc.

When I purchased my home off of Westside Parkway I did so based on the fact that it was eventually supposed to be a 'live/work/play' community. Then the market tanked and we got the Amphitheater, but not much else. The atmosphere at Avalon is exactly what I WANTED, it just didn't exist. I chose to buy *almost* what I wanted because I was tired of commuting. But none of the rest of my coworkers (30-something, college educated, full time corporate employed individuals) made that choice because Alpharetta is 'boring.'

There's just so much good that I can see coming from this development that I think it's silly to argue over 250 high end rental units. Why didn't we have this discussion about the 340-unit apartment complex currently under construction at Mansell Road. Isn't that just like the ones in Sandy Springs that Linda mentioned? THAT one I would have voted against, but nobody asked.

The market is different these days, and I don't think it's fair to punish NAP b/c the city allowed rental units to go over their plan. Get rid of the eyesore, and let's get building!

I agree 100%. The only consideration should be what's best for the community, rather than chasing a particular number/percentage. If the percentage was 90/10 right now, I sure wouldn't expect every application to get approved but rather fully measured based on its potential to make Alpharetta the envy of the southeast. I could never imagine an apartment complex doing that. Avalon, on the other hand...

From my reading of the AJC article it seems that the 25,000 the city paid Progress Partners (not GNFCC) was for this entity be the agent for economic development in Alpharetta.

Taking a look at Progress Partners website it seems they have had great success in the year and a half they have been operating, 151 million in new investment in North Fulton last year.

But back to Avalon, how could one then argue that their support of this project (over 800 million invested in an eyesore with the potential for 1k-2k jobs) is anything but economic development. Seems to me they are doing exactly what the city paid them to do.

Two more cents, I guess that makes $0.06. This discussion is far too contrived and well-scripted. I 'smelled a rat' on Sunday, then partially changed my mind, now I'm back to my original hunch.

I will probably end up buying near whatever this turns out to be. The last thing I need is access to more retail in this area. More parks, ok. Some green space would be nice. We are not exactly hurting for more commercial. And while I'm a renter, I am also a business owner and understand demographics. I still don't know if 15% is the right number, but I understand the issue and potential impact of this kind of decision.

But the short story is that I can't imagine anyone getting as excited as the few above with the repeated gushing about more shops and apartments. Add to it that this board got quiet for several hours until Linda chimed in again and then all three of the proponents jumped in within 20 minutes. It doesn't meet the smell test.

Something is not adding up here.

@ William - Try living across from the Avalon/Prospect Park grounds for the past 4.5 years as I have and you would appreciate all too well the passion I have for seeing this project flourish. :-)

Linda said:
"Ah but there's the rub. It's not just 250 high end rental units at Avalon. It's the fact that there are other developers who have been refused in the past and will be waiting in the wings if this goes through."

This is the nub of the issue. Avalon is not operating in a vacuum.

MetLife wanted apartments this time last year. The city refused and they were forced to make them condos. They will come back for apartments. That's 470 units.

In 2008 was Windward Mill with 400 more condos. They could come back.

There are 300+ apartments on this new application.

And in the area are 250 apartments being built at McFarland and 400.

A Hwy9 LCI conducted on Milton is calling for yet more mixed use.

Up to 4000 new units in Roswell??? http://www.truthinroswell.org/wordpress1/2012/04/03/from-the-in-case-you-missed-it-file/

Earlier "Mike" said:

"Developers can line up all they want, but there's a moratorium on acceptance of any additional mixed use applications until at least August. By that time, it's very likely that a new Mixed Use Ordinance will be in place which will not include rental housing as a residential option."

That makes it sound like we are picking winners and losers. I don't want my tax $ paying for lots of lawsuits either.

A big selling point for me buying a condo in this area was what Prospect Park was supposed to be as well. I'm personally looking forward to Avalon. I've posted a few times on this topic, because honestly this is the only thing in the Patch articles that I really care about. Some people can get excited about new shops and places to go. I enjoy the mall, I enjoy Canton street in Roswell, and I'm looking forward to the development in Downtown as well (although I would have liked to see the plans tie more in with the existing stores there, but that's another issue entirely). I think it's a little ridiculous to suggest that any one who supports these things is being paid off. That said, if Mark Toro wants to cut me a check for my support I'll be more than happy to call his direct line.

So why is there no outrage about these AMLI apartments that are under construction?
AMLI North Point.
"Experience exclusive APARTMENT living in the heart of Alpharetta."
http://www.amli.com/apartments/atlanta/north-point/ebrochure.aspx
AMLI apartments are popping up all over Alpharetta.
I really think the apartment jeannie is out of the bottle...

Is there a master plan on-line?

Is NAP worried that the development will not generate enough retail traffic without the apartments? Do they need the extra residents the 250 apartments would supply to lure high end retailers to the development? They didn't have the apartment approval when they purchased the property but now are saying they'll have to walk away if Alpharetta says no? Anyone who has lived in this community for years knows why there is caution here. We have lived here through the Windward Master Plan (the only master plan that I think is still adhered to and used to deny rezonings or conditional uses due to the Windward voting block), the Cousins Westside Masterplan (we did not get what we were promised) and the Crabapple Master Plan (I know now actually in Milton but adjacent to Alpharetta and not as successful as it was intended). There is a certain level of distrust in our community regarding mixed use plans delivering what is promised and intended. The rental ratio was not addressed in the 2030 Comprehensive Land Use Plan because it would have been too hot of an election issue. Linda is correct to assume that if NAP is granted their wishes it will open the floodgates. In order for the City Council to override the recommendations of the planning commission without opening those legal floodgates they will need to amend the rental ratio and I don't know if they are prepared to do this.

@No Name...yes I pulled my comment because I was not certain about the CLUP amendment issue. The CLUP will not be amended as part of this application.

We are encouraged by the interaction among interested parties posting comments to this article and hope that they are interested enough to come to City Council and engage in the process, in person. April 23 - 730pm - City Hall

I think the 'smell a rat' comments are amusing, considering the majority of posters who are posting repeatedly (Linda and No name and William come to mind without scrolling back up) are against the project.

I, like Kevin, live near and drive past this half-built eyesore every day. And everyday since all of this started is a reminder of what 'could be,' but isn't because we're arguing over 250 high end rental units. Yet nobody cares about the ones down on Mansell. But these, which will be over retail, if I understand properly and not stand alone units, are a problem?

I spent 5 days at The Domain in Austin (stayed at the Westin onsite) on a work trip and absolutely loved it. We walked around each night, ate in a different restaurant, etc. I said several times, "man, this place is awesome, I wish there was something like this in Atlanta," and now we have the opportunity, and we're willing to throw it away over what I consider to be a small issue. I'm not a 'paid supporter,' I'm just passionate about what I believe in. Just like those of you intent on arguing against it.

I think the focus should be more on the rules and management of the rental units, making sure that they are constructed properly and additional sound proofing is in place, making sure that they adhere to # of occupants, etc. so that they remain high end structures. And then focus on breaking ground for construction.

Today I watched the Avalon presentation given at City Hall on February 13th by Mark Toro. The presentation can be found on the City of Alpharetta website.

I felt Mr. Toro’s presentation was well thought out, and I understood the need for residential of all types in Avalon. He mentioned and reiterated the point that apartments would be an issue, but I understood their place in this development. If Avalon can command $4,000/month or some similar rent income, then I say more power to them. I don’t think that NAP is being arbitrary when they say that they can’t build Avalon without the high-end apartments. The mixed residential is a component to garnering interest from high-end retailers who would see Avalon as a viable place for their shop. If there are no shops in the first place, there is no Avalon in the second. I can hear the reply being made -- then have condos instead. As we know in today’s current housing market, a lot of people don’t want to buy they want to rent. Avalon is a horse of a different color from any other retail environment in Alpharetta much less Atlanta or the Southeast.

I am a rules oriented person and understand the need to follow the rules as put forth by the Planning Commission but Avalon is a unique opportunity that doesn’t come along every day.

I was just wondering if anyone in the city has considered giving some form of tax credits for the TDRs? If it is cost prohibitive for NAP, why not have the city make it more cost effective? NAP gets to build and the city gets closer to its 85/15. Have it be specific to a development of this scale so that other developers can't ask for the same credits. I believe it was mentioned there are no other undeveloped properties of this size left in Alpharetta. If it all comes down to numbers for both sides (dollars vs. rental units) but everyone wants something besides a 6 yr old mud pit, then focus on making the math work for everyone. Just a thought.

@ Lee at rootsinalpahretta: The impact fee waiver was for the value of Westside Parkway.

I love the poll on this site. Just block cookies and you can vote as much as you want. I used privacy mode on via the browser on my iPad and racked up several votes all by myself. Pretty sure others have figured this out already but figured I would share all the same. :-) The vote numbers are definitely bogus at this point.

I would like to ask everyone to read this article on new urbanism. This addresses our design concerns. It is an interview with noted architect and planner, Andres Duany.
He has designed a proposed plan for Roswell to review that has what I had hoped for Alpharetta. His DPZ design group's web site is outstanding.
http://www.theatlantic.com/special-report/the-future-of-the-city/archive/2010/05/the-man-who-reinvented-the-city/56853/

New Urbanism expressed for Alpharetta in a town center design. Guaranteed traffic flow to stores and restaurants with Westside openning. Modified design much better than origional but still needs more European ambiance & greenery. I don't see a conflict with Northpoint stores. Northpoint Mall needs transition to high End outlet stores: Last Call, Off Fifth...also 2 more family friendly restaurants in mall and NEW CONCEPT: Activity Center for teens HIGH TECH, computers, math, science, creative centers to engage CREATIVE LEARNING funded and sponsored by corporations and in the mall. The time is right. Look at popularity of Apple store. Avalon: restaurants, cafe's, shops, a market, more stores. We do need a convention center nearby. Roswell may be getting the boutique hotel. Things are shaping up, if only the design commission would rezone hwy 9 from Old Milton to Windward and stop building auto repair & parts stores on our street! This street should be protected as an extension of downtown.

Btw, I think the large dept. stores are redundant, hope none are going into Avalon. Macy's works at Northpoint. On-line shopping easier unless you want to socialize.

Mark,
I'm curious as to why no large department stores. Some large department stores should not be ruled out....especially the ones that are not here in Alpahretta or close to the vicinity. There should be at least two high end stores intergrated into this project. I've mentioned Last Call Neiman Marcus and Off Saks. With the exception of the actual retail stores in Buckhead and Perimeter. This side of Atlanta (Sandy Springs, Roswell, Buckhead, Milton, Cumming, Cobb County etc..) There are no outlet stores like this in the area, unless you travel to the North Georgia Premium Outlets or Discover Mills, which is to far out. I think both stores would fit into what you guys are trying to accomplish perfectly. Nordstrom Rack was just opened at North Point, so the addition of these to stores would fit in perfectly. HIgh End Retail. You have alot of people who travel to work here in Alpharetta. I'm sure the majority of the people who support the retail that goes intothis project are women. I live right off of Westside Parkway and would like to see this project win, but depending on the type of retail, dining and entertainment I'm not sure. Mark, please take some of these suggestions into account please:
Krispy Kreme :-)
Schmick and McCormick
Century 21 - This is a NY based store in lower Manhattan, that is "very" popular in NY.

Oh...to add...the container store would also be great.

i am looking to downsize! this place sounds fantastic. What elementary, middle, and HS schools would kids living here attend?
thanks